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Talk:Dan-Ball Wiki
Old discussions can be found at the Archive. Logo Contest Acually we could make two contests: # One for creating a logo for the Dan-Ball Wiki itself as logo. It should say "Dan-Ball Wiki". It would be included on the main page of the wiki at the top or something like this. Requirements: #* The text "Dan-Ball Wiki" should be clearly recognizable. #* No other text, except if it helps you to understand what the wiki offers. For example its OK to include the names of the Dan-Ball games, or add some other advertising buzzwords like "creativity", "informations", "elements", "physics", ... But don't inlcude anything which doesn't have to do with the Wiki or the Dan-Ball games like "acid" ... ;-) # One for creating a logo for the Forum. It should say something like "((The))official) Dan-Ball Forums". And it would be included at the right side on the main page where this small advertisement box. Requirements: #* Probably this one is more free. You just have to make clear, that this thing represents the forum. If you can symbolize this even without text (for example using speech bubbles), thats OK too. And you should keep in mind that this one has less space on the wiki page. But finally there is no guarantee that the winner's images will be used.--Justme2 16:51, 24 November 2008 (UTC) List of logos Mrperson777's logo I made a logo. Here it is. this sucks! 12:02, 23 August 2008 (UTC) My opinion: :positive: :* Idea of using powder game for such a logo. :* Font style of the "Wiki". :* Clear appearance :negative: :* Jaggy/lacerated edges. It should have smooth boundaries. :* To less effects of Powder Game used. (For example, place a tree somewhere, some horizontal/vertical electric wires. Some water, lava, magma, some explosions, whatever ... , would be nice, and a player somewhere. But it should not be too much. The first thing you see has to be the text. Only on the second view you should see: This is powder game.) --Justme2 20:16, 23 November 2008 (UTC) ---- Yonder's Logo This! Is my logo. I hope you like it. --Yonder 22:42, 23 November 2008 (UTC) Very cool! I suggest you to make a advertisement upload using this logo, to make our wiki more popular. Myven 22:59, 23 November 2008 (UTC) Ehh, that won't work good. I made this is Photopaint. :P --Yonder 02:47, 24 November 2008 (UTC) Yes, something like this. But please remove the so-called "ideas" ... ;-) And of course it only counts if you do it in Powder Game. But wait for comments from others before you do unnecessary work. We could also make one of those contests in the forum for a logo. Maybe one of the enties is good enough that everyone likes it. --Justme2 13:16, 24 November 2008 (UTC) If you're thinking about making this a contest, then you're lucky that you have me on the forum. I think this would be OK for a contest. It has to do with dan-ball and could get you a few more members and/or visitors. But I have to agree, please get rid of the ideas...--Buggy793 15:46, 24 November 2008 (UTC) Umm, Yonder... You forgot BG- Light, Aura, and Toon... Just so you know...Combak 21:22, 13 December 2008 (UTC) :That was on purpose, Combak. :P --Yonder 14:08, 31 December 2008 (UTC) ---- SandMaster's Logo This took a LOT of editing! See full size! I have little sections and am willing to edit at requests. Any? I might edit it so that the two Danbo's in front of the bar thing instead of behind. One last thing... This is all MS Paint. No fancy tools or lens flare things, just pens and erasers.--Sand master 02:48, 5 December 2008 (UTC) Customization of the skin and colors I thought about customizing the colors of the wiki as well. One suggestion would be, we use similar colors like the Dan-Ball page. For example we could use these colors: Some Text in color F7BE26 on a box in color 731008 Some Text in color 731008 on a box in color F7BE26 Some Text in color 000000 on a box in color F0B967''' What do you think about it? If you are interested I'm going to figure out how to integrate this stuff into the skin system (probably the easy part), and how to make it look good (probably the hard part). --Justme2 16:39, 4 December 2008 (UTC) That sounds good... Is that DanBall Forums colors?--Sand master 22:23, 4 December 2008 (UTC) No, those are averaged colors of the original Dan-Ball site's backgrounds for header, nav bar and page body. But I wonder whether we have to ask for permission to use a web design with similar colors. --Justme2 23:26, 4 December 2008 (UTC) I doubt so. This is explicitly a Wiki about Dan-Ball, and if they would want to accuse us of plagarism, they wouldn't be attacking our colour choice; they'd attack us for "stealing" images from the games, which wouldn't be a reasonable accusation because we do give credit to Dan-Ball for having those games. --bewnt 01:08, 5 December 2008 (UTC) Not to mention the in-your-face copyright on the bottom of each game.--Sand master 03:50, 5 December 2008 (UTC) I've read a little bit about copyrights and images yesterday. I think our screenshots would qualify as "fair use" in respect to the "United States copyright law", because the main purpose is to "review" and "explain" (educational/knowledge) the game. But I'm not really sure about it and the american law system has always been strange to me (and btw I don't care about it cause I'm German). But I somehow doubt that fair use also applies if we use the logo or coping parts of the Dan-Ball sites design, because the main purpose is more style, structure, recognizability and stuff like that. Maybe we should just ask ha55ii (perhaps with help of Listo)? --Justme2 14:34, 5 December 2008 (UTC) Well, if anything, ha55ii would go by Japanese Copyright laws, but heck. They can't attack us by having the same colors scheme. We gave credit where it's due, so I think it would be fine. --Buggy793 15:41, 8 December 2008 (UTC) : From a Stick Ranger reader's point of view, it is best to keep the background black. This is most optimum for display of images, since SR uses a black background for both items and enemies. This is also why I am using the Gaming skin right now, and is why I made the background of the enemy tables in stage pages black. --bewnt 09:53, 14 December 2008 (UTC) Motto? How about having a motto for this site? This might make it look more attractive, and can help us do something else than create pages for Stick Ranger enemies. :P --Yonder 18:48, 13 December 2008 (UTC) : Haha... any suggestions? Hopefully it won't turn into something like "SR/PG is da best!" or "Long live ha55ii and Dan-Ball"... --bewnt 00:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC) ::Nope...I was just suggesting. :-) --Yonder 01:23, 18 December 2008 (UTC) We should have a national anthem: We gather here One day of seven We wait here We cannot move from out seats To lose comprehension On every Friday Dazzle us with that Which has not been seen by the naked eye And now we gather here And wait for the news The post by our superior Admin of all things And it comes to us And we refresh the page And see the change... SHIT. Font Game got updated this time. --(SANDMASTER) 17:12, 19 December 2008 (UTC) Hah! For a moment i didn't realize the "SHIT!" Part was part of the anthem! Nice one! FoxtrotZero 20:36, 22 December 2008 (UTC) That's the point of all of it. Is it a good anthem? --(SANDMASTER) 18:28, 6 January 2009 (UTC) The Front Page Hey guys, on another wiki I check out they have a Collabration of the Week, Featured Article of the Week, Image of the Week, Member of the Week, and a Quote of the Week. Scratching the Quote of the Week part, why not put something like that on the front page of this wiki. That way, everybody knows were to direct their efforts, what a good image and article looks like, and what a good member should do. Waht do you think? Combak 21:18, 13 December 2008 (UTC) : That sounds like a wonderful idea. Unfortunately, we do not have too many articles (304, to be exact), out of which only very few (11 at most) deserve mention - not enough to maintain one a week. Image of the Week isn't much better either - all we have are screenshots and tiny little icons of weapons and whatnot. We also have too few members for Member of the Week (unless a member can be MotW more than once, in which case I propose giving me2 MotW for every week). To solve this problem we already have the Featured Users column (Monaco sidebar > Community > Featured Users). Collaboration of the Week is very feasible though, and for us, very much needed. We can give that a shot. : P.S. (not just to Combak, but to everyone) don't use Level 1 headers. --bewnt 00:20, 14 December 2008 (UTC) Oops, sorry, I had know idea about the level 1 header thing. Also, I should have meantioned that the wikia I was talking about was on something maybe 7 years old, so they had tons of articles.Combak 01:10, 19 December 2008 (UTC) Other Dan-Ball-related Stuff at Wikia I just made an interesting discovery. There are three pages about Dan-Ball games at Wikia Gaming: * Powder Game at Wikia Gaming * Earth Editor at Wikia Gaming * Irritation Stickman at Wikia Gaming And finally: Another wiki about Powder Game: * WikiPowder It's not that good as our wiki, but it has at least a few pages, including new stuff like lasers. --Justme2 13:38, 17 December 2008 (UTC) Nav bar I found something interesting: http://powder.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Materials I think we shoudl make something symilar to this for alements and objects from simulation games and stuff about stick ranger. Myven 17:28, 17 December 2008 (UTC) :This is basically a nav box! With colors! And I really like it! There are two ways how you can include such a thing. One is a floating box on the left right below (or above) the element info box. The other one would be more a navigation bar at the bottom of each element article. This is also the common way of doing it in Wikipedia. I'm going to build both versions (for PG) tonight and show you. --Justme2 17:54, 17 December 2008 (UTC) ::Nav bar: ::Goes at the bottom of each element article. Flexible in size (change the size of your browser window to see it). If you don't like the design/colors/border/etc I can change it of course. The navigation box version will be similar to the navigation bar, but it will be a fixed width 3-colum design which floats to the right. But I prefer the bar. --Justme2 00:51, 18 December 2008 (UTC) How about the elements are written in the font of Powder Game? (If the word does not exist in the font, just create it). I would be happy to create these pictures of font. --Yonder 00:26, 19 December 2008 (UTC) We could also use a PG menu, where clicking on the elements will take us to the page. Of course, my idea is too thick and should be spread out across the page, making it look completely different from an actual PG menu.--(SNAMDASTER) 17:14, 19 December 2008 (UTC) Do you mean a clickable screenshot of the original list from PG? And use this in some sort of nav box? --Justme2 03:58, 20 December 2008 (UTC) :Something like you said. Skin Customization? (Again) I really want to get back to this; I would like to see if we can get the headers, sub headers, bars, and backgrounds (etc.) changed. I know as a matter of fact that its doable. I was browsing some other wikia gaming wikis. These in particular: * http://half-life.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page * http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Mass_Effect_Wiki * http://astroempires.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page I actually wasn't looking at the first, but whatever. I think most of us here use the Monaco style, and most other people do by default. If i recall, layout is user specific and not generic to the wiki; the colors are. Clearly, they are changeable, as the Half Life (Over)Wiki has an orange/gray look to it. The other two have the same color scheme. I am pretty convinced one copied the other. So, as such, it is clearly possible to change all aspects of our wiki's color and i would like to do just that. I would like to use the colors mentioned above, the DB ones. For reference, here is a list of Hexadecimal codes i have bookmarked. I find it makes things easier (i really need to reorganise my bookmarks though, as they are categorized). It can be used widely around here, and the codes do all work: http://www.december.com/html/spec/colorsafe.html Remember not to put the # signs. Can anyone do some digging and find out how we can put these in? : I think I can figure out. But I can tell for sure, that exactly opposite of "Remember not to put the # signs." is true, because we are going to do massive CSS editing. I just haven't found the time to figure out how they structured their CSS stuff, and this will surly take me several hours. The documentation is here: Wikia Help: Customizing Monaco. But please, make absolutly sure you know what you are doing if you start editing this stuff (which means you really should know CSS), because as an sys-op you can very quickly make everything pretty bad for all visitors. I'll have a look at it withing the next few days. --Justme2 01:21, 18 December 2008 (UTC) :: My working version can be examined by adding ?useskin=monaco&usetheme=custom to any URL you are visiting. If the URL already includes a questiomark use &useskin=monaco&usetheme=custom instead. :: For example the main page: http://danball.wikia.com/wiki/Dan-Ball_Wiki?useskin=monaco&usetheme=custom. :: Currently it's not really worth visiting. It will make only slow progress. Keep in mind you have to do a hard browser refresh to clear the browser cache. Otherwise new changes won't show up. --Justme2 23:09, 18 December 2008 (UTC) :::I recall looking at that page. But i barely speak LUA, and i sure as hell don't know what i am doing. Thats that. None the less, i love it. Its freaking awesome. The grey headers need to be changed to red, but other than that i feel it is just what we are looking for. :::Great job. I start to question why i am the Admin around here... :::FoxtrotZero 00:33, 19 December 2008 (UTC) :::: Btw: I have already told this at MediaWiki Talk:Monaco.css‎: Unfortunately I have to do hundreds of edits at MediaWiki:Monaco.css‎, because otherwise I won't see any effect. If my edit-spamming of MediaWiki:Monaco.css‎ is annoying you on the page , then simply select the Namespace "MediaWiki" and click "invert selection". This will sort them out. --Justme2 14:09, 20 December 2008 (UTC) ::::: Most changes are done to the skin! ::::: At least most of the fancy CSS stuff. I hope I didn't forget too many elements or special boxes or whatever. I want to do a complete check and reorganize it before I release this thing. Unfortunatelly there is no documentation which CSS IDs and CSS classes are used by the wiki, so this is a lot of work. And I didn't change most of our own boxes which are defined in templates. For example all those infoboxes or the and templates. ::::: I still didn't have any look to the pages with Internet Explorer. I developed using Opera. Firefox displays everything very similar to Opera, so usually there is no problem. But the Internet Explorer has a lot of CSS bugs, and I expect a great chance for it to have at least a few display errors. But I'll try to take care of this old buggy browser engine, too. :::::Also there are some minor things to do. The Wikia logo, the "GAMING" button and the "MORE" button don't have the correct yellow. Somebody with Photoshop is required to change them (because the image template is made with it). If you have Photoshop and know how to use it, talk to me, I'll explain you what to do. ::::: You can visit any page you want with the new skin by manipulating the URL as described above. Please provide some feedback and search for everything which doesn't fit to the design. --Justme2 23:39, 23 December 2008 (UTC) This is all for the Monaco skins, right? But, there is more work, because I think this mumbojumbo should also be for the Quartz skins for the fact that not all members use Monaco skins... --Yonder 16:48, 28 December 2008 (UTC) There are alot of custom skins. Cant the base colors be edited so it occurs on all skins? Stupid complexification. FoxtrotZero 23:30, 28 December 2008 (UTC) :Well, I finally found a usefull documentation about skins: Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Catalogue_of_CSS_classes :It's not where it should be (meta.wikimedia.org or www.mediawiki.org), and it seem this documentation isn't up to date: But it's probably the best available. It covers the basic MediaWiki Stuff and some of the old Skin types. But documentations for Quartz and Monaco are completly missing. If you found it, please tell me!!! : Also I'm not sure that creating skins for those other skins even makes sense. As far as I have understood the skin system it works like this: The user can choose any skin and theme he wants for a wiki. The admins of the wiki can set one default skin+theme, which would overwrite the user's settings. But if the user still wants to use his own prefered skin he can also choose to ignore the admin setting. : Skins are currently Monaco, Quartz, Wikipedia skin (Monobook), and those old skins skinsCologneBlue, Modern, MySkin, Simple, Standard, lostbook. Monaco and Quarz also have different themes. But I think those themes are not the same for Monaco and Quartz (for example there is no theme "Jade" for Quartz), they only look in huge parts the same. :If we provide a custom Monaco skin, the only way to do this is using the theme which is called "custom". This is configured by MediaWiki:Monaco.css. The "custom" theme is not selectable by the user, only the admin can choose to set it as the default skin+theme for all users. I don't know if the other skins are also customizable, but I somehow doubt it, because the admin can only choose from the usual Monaco skins for the wikis default skin. : As far as I understood the documentation, every skin uses the MediaWiki:Common.css. This is for the basic things, which apply to all skins. For example we could place some basic skinning for some of our templates there. In addition to this all skins have an additional MediaWiki:Monaco.css, MediaWiki:Monobook.css, MediaWiki:Cologneblue.css, for each of the skins and maybe there is something for Quarz too. But I fear, that for those the changes would apply to all theme, and not only for a custom one like for Monaco. But I still don't have any documentation how the quarz skinning system works. If you find one, tell me!!! : But anyway, we can only set one default skin for the wiki. If I got it right, this would completly overwrite the users skin selection, unless he chooses not to allow it. And if the chooses to not allow it, he will not see any effect of our effort. So we can only offer one skin+theme to our visitors, and we can not offer a custom Monaco theme, a custom Quarz theme, a custom Monobook theme, from which he can choose and so on. : If this is right, what I'm telling here (I'm going to ask some helpers in the IRC about it), the best would probably be: :* Offer one custom theme for the Monaco skin and set it as default. (Monaco.css) :* Make sure that every other skin and theme is working well with all our templates and stuff and colors and font sizes are appropriate. (Common.css and skin dependent CSS file) : Also this whole skinning is a very big amount of work. Just look how many edits I have done to Monaco.css and how long it is. I haven't even finished the theme in clean way, and I guess I only got at most half of all existing elements covered. Currently it's still possible that the system shows a strage warning message, which I have completly forgotten. And I still haven't had the time to check if all that stuff works with the buggy Internet Explorer. : --Justme2 14:39, 29 December 2008 (UTC) :: There is absolutely no rush for the preparation of the skin. This is especially since you're the only one working on it (I would gladly help, but my coding knowledge is subpar). It is a daunting task, so take it easy. As for using Monaco, I wonder why Yonder does not use Monaco (since I believe Monaco allows for more versatility than Quartz). Is it because of browser limitations? If so, we have to consider making a skin that is useable for one and all. --bewnt 15:15, 29 December 2008 (UTC) :::I use Quartz because I can handle things better with this type of skin. That is the only reason why I do. I think that Monaco has too many features I do not need. --Yonder 11:50, 31 December 2008 (UTC) ODBF on frontpage There is some text on the top-right corner advertising the ODBF. I believe it should be removed. Don't get me wrong, I find the ODBF awesome, however it doesn't belong on the frontpage because: * It is not directly related to the Wiki (i.e. this is a wiki about Dan-Ball, not about Dan-Ball forums) * It already has a page (Official Dan-Ball Forums) describing it * It contains an external link, and by the non-neutral wording, will seem like an advertisement, which shouldn't belong on the main page. The English Wikipedia doesn't have such "advertisements" on the mainpage either. I would greatly appreciate input from other users on this issue. Thanks! --bewnt 03:34, 31 December 2008 (UTC) It does look like an advertisement, but I do think it should stay. Because, what other things should replace it? --Yonder 14:05, 31 December 2008 (UTC) : I guess a section containing a list of stuff that users should take note of. I believe very few people ever read it, and end up making useless pages, or not following the intended format. --bewnt 14:30, 31 December 2008 (UTC) : Originally it was a section for a featured article. You pick a cool article, display one of its images there and you place some text of it. --Justme2 18:19, 31 December 2008 (UTC) ::Sounds great! Maybe it could be called "Article of the Week/Month". I would definitely add this if we could. The text to the article should be a brief summary, while the title is the link to the article. -- 19:32, 31 December 2008 (UTC) :: I'm afraid it won't last long due to the low article count of our wiki, especially since there aren't many notable pages at all. We can try, though! --bewnt 02:03, 1 January 2009 (UTC) :::As I said, It could be "Article of the Month". 345+ months are a loooong time. And even if there is the low-article count, we still got 6 years full of article of the weeks until all articles were used.--Yonder 14:56, 1 January 2009 (UTC) :::: Quote Wikipedia, "Featured articles are considered to be the best articles in Wikipedia, as determined by Wikipedia's editors. Before being listed here, articles are reviewed at featured article candidates for accuracy, neutrality, completeness, and style according to our featured article criteria." More details are found on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_criteria. :::: In short, not all articles can be considered featured articles. As a matter of fact, the ratio of featured to non-featured articles in the English wikipedia is 1:1130. I believe only 5-10% of our articles here (at the very most) can qualify for the "featured article" title. Would you like to see STR as a featured article? I don't think so! --bewnt 15:07, 1 January 2009 (UTC) ::::: I don't know who placed the ODBF there. Though it was poorly written, so i re-wrote it. none the less, it needs to be replaced. Perhaps instead of monthly we could have every two weeks (is that Bi-Weekly?). --(anonymous user) ::::: Before discussing about the period, we should first build up a pool of good articles, which are possible candiates. After this we can see, what time period would be a good schedule. I suggest we create a page in Category:Organisation which we call Dan-Ball Wiki:Featured articles or similar. On this page we list our criterias about the featured article, followed by a list of articles, which might be good candidates. And on the respecting talk page Dan-Ball Wiki talk:Featured articles we discuss about those articles and whether they are really appropriate or not. --Justme2 23:56, 1 January 2009 (UTC) ::::::Sounds good. but first, we need a "rating" for these featured articles. You cannot write "this article is cool" in the discussion page just to make it be a featured article. Don't you think? --Yonder 15:09, 5 January 2009 (UTC) :::::::I am fully for it. I think its unanimous that we should agree upon some criteria. But could we please stop the reckless indentations? And by that i mean, stop the reckless indentations. --FoxtrotZero 01:43, 7 January 2009 (UTC) ::::::::I like the indention. It allows you can directly answer to a certain comment of somebody. Wikipedians do the same. What's wrong with it? :-) --Justme2 12:39, 6 January 2009 (UTC) :::::::There already is a rating system. However, it seems to be misused. Using the Monaco skin, I navigated through the sidebar for the "highest voted" articles, and #1 on the list was Lighter element, which is a STUB! We can't allow THAT to be our judging criteria! The Wikipedia system goes like this: There is a Template:fac which should be pasted on the talk page of nominated articles. These articles will be collected on a Dan-Ball Wiki:Featured article candidates page, which we can proceed to support and oppose. Since our wiki is drastically smaller in scale, I think we should just list a set of criteria and have active authors nominate pages and state reasons. --bewnt 06:28, 6 January 2009 (UTC) :::::::: I agree with Bewnt and the anonymous user. First there is a rating system. Second I don't think it makes sense to rate all articles before considering them to be a featured article. Simply because this is too much work. Currently we don't have real hard critery which allow to give each article a certain rating value, and I think this even will stay in future like this. All we currently have is a bunch of very vage criterias, which we stole from Wikipedia. Just let's make it as easy as possible: If you see a good article, just add it to the list of proposed candidates for a featured article, and tell at the talk page, what you like and what you don't like about it and await comments from other authors and users. If a few authors agree, we have a new featured article, which goes into the list, from which we regularly choose. :::::::: Also I'd like to mention that Bewnt has created the page Dan-Ball Wiki:Featured articles. --Justme2 12:39, 6 January 2009 (UTC) :::::::::I was the anynomus user, Not logged in at the time. I like the indentation too, but with alot of replys it gets out of hand. I think after 10 indentations you should reset and not indent, and repeat the cycle. And by "I think" i mean "do this". But on the other hand, i think the users know what a good article is. Its mostly general being of good quality, anything else is outstanding, which is the type of put-forth material we want to be displaying. I know we can tell good from bad. However, i still want the ODBF somewhere on the front page. It doesn't have to be the first thing people say, or real in your face. It doesn't even need a picture. But i would like it to be served on the side with a clear appearance, a short description, and a link. FoxtrotZero 01:43, 7 January 2009 (UTC) :::::::::: This discussion should be ending rather soon, so I'll leave the indents as they are. My proposed solution: Right sidebar: Featured article, Featured media, ODBF. If there are no objections, I'll get down to work. --bewnt 03:42, 7 January 2009 (UTC) Go ahead and do that, bewnt. I look forward to the result. I feel bad that i can't do more technical stuff around here, and school really makes being even a regular help somewhat difficult. I have at least three projects at any given time. I feel like an overseer. I will not take credit for you guys' outstanding work, though. I hade this wiki created because i care about dan-ball and i wanted a place for people to have the necesarry information about it. Speaking of wikis, i need to come together with an amazing report to clear the slate of Wikipedia. Educational facilitys don't like it because its the encyclopedia anyone can edit. While i understand their reasons, i bet that its last look at was back in 2005 or somethag and they have no clue how the underworkings of it function. There is a wide and dedicated staff, and an overwhelming amount of well meaning members that set the handful of non-do-wells completely off. FoxtrotZero 00:53, 8 January 2009 (UTC) : As the year picks up, I too will be suffocating with my workload. Using Wiki in school is a problem that has me swaying back and forth. I do realise that most online resources cannot compare to Wiki simply because hundreds of thousands of editors is always better than just a few. --bewnt 03:36, 8 January 2009 (UTC) non dan ball simulation games I know it is dan ball wiki but maby we shoudl write some articles about other non dan ball sillation games? For example burning sand. Its cool game too. Myven 10:50, 8 February 2009 (UTC) : Yeah burning sands is a cool game, however this is the Dan-Ball wiki, and unfortunately, burning sands isn't part of Dan-Ball. Also, there are tons of simulation games out there. Some already have their own wikis, and if we include all simulation games into this wiki, we'll have too many overlapping names. The answer is a strict "no". --bewnt 11:10, 8 February 2009 (UTC) :: Yes, I agree. I wouldn't not include burning sand or similar games. But what we could do is creating an article about the comparison of PG to other similar dot-based simulation games like "burning sand" or "falling sand" and compare its features. For example: ::* Do they simulate special physical effects like: ::** air effects including: wind, pressure, temperature ::** liquids ::** gases ::** electricity ::** optics (Laser) ::** gravity (if it's more than just falling down) ::** magnetism (if any) ::** ... ::* comparison of elements/objects ... ::** ... which are special to PG. ::** ... which are special to the other games and not in PG. ::* possibility to create more complex machines/mechanisms (like with Thunder+metal, Laser+metal or C4-Clone-explosion chains in PG) ::* Functionality like: ::** Save (GET/SET) and Upload functionality ::** direct manipulation (like drag or more advanced draw, clear and replace tools) ::** user extendable (User can code new elements/behaviours) ::* Plattform (webbased on Java or Flash, or binary executable (.exe), which has to get downloaded.) ::* ... ::--Justme2 11:40, 8 February 2009 (UTC)